Not at my house anyway….
I enjoy the Thinking Dominant. A latest post is on a topic that interests me:
- What does chivalry mean to you?
- Do you have rules of manners and etiquette for your submissive?
- Who holds doors, orders food and handles money?
- What importance is etiquette for your dynamic?
I wanted to encourage a discussion on this in general here, but I’ll just share a few words on the subject myself. I went on a date last week with man who has impeccable manners. He held doors for me, held my chair, helped me on with my coat, saw to it that I had what I liked to eat and drink. He was a terrific host all around. His deference felt like a compliment to me as a woman. It didn’t have to do with submissiveness or dominance in those moments. My husband doesn’t usually get doors for me these days. I suppose that familiarity and working together day and day out, we see each other as able bodied individuals, though on dates, his sense of chivalry comes to the fore again and he gets doors for me again. What he never fails to do though, is to make me food when he makes himself some. He always makes sure that if he’s getting something from another room or at the store that he asks if I need anything. He lets me pick the movie. He makes sure that I’m warm enough. He takes care of my car fluids, even though its my car, not his. He reminds me of things if its clear I’ve forgotten something, because he wants me to feel good about how I present myself to the world. In these ways, he shows me deference, and here again, its not got to do with submissiveness and dominance. Its a matter of showing deep respect to me.
I show my respect to a man by always complimenting and appreciating him. I remark on things he does unconsciously that are kind or shows his innate talents. I touch him with great affection. Its important to me to give a man touch, because a man is less likely to ask for it and he’s far more in need of it than he’s usually willing to admit to himself. It leaves a man feeling all soft and relaxed. Feeling cherished like that is a way that I offer chivalry. Submission and dominance don’t have anything to do with it…though I can turn it into a service or dominate with my touch. Its my choice which way that goes.
I also always speak with respect to the person I’m with, even when I’m very angry. That too isn’t about D/s for me. Much of these things have to do with common courtesy and mutual respect. I think it becomes an issue in these times simply because people tend to behave in general with less manners than in past times.
However, I’ve thought for quite awhile that I’d enjoy some formality at times about manners or etiquette. It makes moments particularly special. I’ve read on some blogs about the submissive not being able to begin eating or drinking until the Top had first tasted their food and drink. It is well mannered to wait until the most honored guest begins or when the woman of the house begins in general, but to apply this to a D/s situation seems enjoyable.
I suppose there are times when some behavior feels dominant or submissive to me. On one of my recent dates, I was less familiar with the cuisine we chose than he is, so I made it clear that I would defer to him in the matter. This pleased him as he really did seem to want to order for me. He asked me a few questions about what I liked and didn’t and then he ordered. I really enjoyed listening to him take on the task of ordering for me. Then we chuckled at my lack of dexterity with chopsticks. The next time we went out, I picked just what I wanted, but he made it very clear he was ready to leave when the waiter asked me if I wanted a refill on my iced tea…that I was not allowed to order another. It made me smile.
In any case, I wondered what others thought about this topic?




















November 15, 2008 at 8:28 am
Shannee, manners and etiquette are important in any relationship, perhaps more so in a D D or D/s.
I’ll try not to be sex specific, a Domme treating her male submissive in public the same way that a Dom treats his female sub in public would be most inappropriate.
In my view the prime rule is the comfort of the sub in public and to avoid standing out.
My role modal was Mel’s father, he treated his wife with love, respect and care and punished her when necessary.
The way that I treated Mel was considered very old fashioned, I believe that I treated her as the lady she was.
This didn’t alter the fact that discipline and a very active sex life took place behind closed doors.
Have a great week-end.
Love and warm hugs,
Paul.
Good morning Paul!! Windy chill day here. After a week of warmer weather, the temps will go down and stay in the freezing range this week coming I understand. I guess that winter weather is arriving. Despite this, we’ve got lots of eggs from our clucks and enough now to start selling them to our friends it seems. So they’ll finally start buying their own feed. That will be nice. *smiles*As for manners, I sure do agree that its very important in any relationship. People should treat everyone with unfailing kindness and good manners. We deserve it from each other. I also agree with you about a dominant treating a submissive in ways that stand out in public is inappropriate. I’m sure there’s fun to be had with unobtrusive interactions between the couple, but I don’t think that a couple should be bringing the public into their kink. Its just not okay. And I think that extends to having guests in your home….even if they are kink friendly. I strongly dislike being around when someone is disciplined in public. Its just really uncomfortable. Just as uncomfortable as watching people discipline their kids or seeing adults have an argument in public in obtrusive ways. I hope you are having a terrific weekend yourself Paul Blessings to you!! ((Hugs))
November 15, 2008 at 8:53 am
This post started my train of thinking off in the vein that many aspects of being well -mannered are akin to submissive personality traits, and then I realised that it is just as true of people who may be more Dominant, and in fact a courteous regard for others is something you’d hope would be the foundation upon which we all act as human beings.
So even though I agree with you that it isn’t and shouldn’t only be existent in a D/s relationship, I think that D/s may help us to get better at being that way. Certainly for me I take more notice of my behaviour now, so my natural way of being that has always been there, now with an outlet for being expressed more explicitly, seems to have developed it further in me.
We can sometimes play out those wonderful old fashioned ways more in the D/s dynamic and that is enjoyable. For example, most of my rules for being a Well Disciplined girl are really just rooted in common courtesy, good manners, consideration and compassion to others, and myself. And I have a lot of fun hearing that voice in my head asking ” is that what a well disciplined girl would do? is that what a well disciplined girl would wear? etc etc..” It is a delightful voice to hear amongst the type of voices one is exposed to each day out there in the world!
I like chivalrous attention but I never expect it.
I loved reading about what your husband does for you Shannee – and what you do for him. Having someone that looks after you in that way must be a lovely thing. And I love it too that you notice those things as I suspect there are many people that take those aspects of their relationships for granted.
Hugs and warm wishes for the weekend. It is chilly here in London and I’m off to have afternoon tea in a grand old traditional establishment where perhaps someone will be a real gentleman to me ;-)
Olivia ( Manners, seemed apt to add my other name in here give the theme of the post ! )
X
I do believe you are right about D/s being a lovely way to improve and deepen chivalry and manners. A very good point indeed Olivia! Thank you for your compliments on my relationship. It is a very good relationship in so many ways…lots of love and respect. Lots of very wise people remind me that perspective has alot to do with how we experience reality…and I think that affection, good manners and affirmation of what’s good and wonderful in your partner creates a positive energy between you and that person. It helps one get over hurdles in the relationship and it helps us not get into nitpicking mode. Once you go there in a relationship, there’s nothing but bitching going on…nothing good ever comes of that. I hope you had a lovely afternoon tea. *smiles* ((hugs)) Have a great weekend Ms Manners. *grins*
November 15, 2008 at 11:52 am
I have always been impressed by Krishna’s generosity and consideration – he opens doors, he helps me with my coat, he is most patient with me in all things. Although I grew up in the States there were little points of good behaviour that I was lacking simply because of cultural differences in our upbringing, such as particular table manners. I have always turned to the Lord Krishna for my cues when relating to others. His kindness and courtesy morphs as the quiet strength of dominance.
When we are at gatherings, I stick close to his side, and generally let him initiate conversation. This may seem to be submission, but I see it as him guiding me in his world.
I didn’t think about chivalrous attention until he came into my life. For him, it was a given, simply how he interacts with others. Suddenly, all those points of feminism in terms of equality seemed theoretical in light of his real life practice. I remember a time when I was younger, hanging out with the girls, all of us teaching women’s studies at the time, we were at a bar. When it started to get late, I decided to call and let him know where I was. This was noticed by a few of my friends who proceeded to argue with me about being submissive to a man, and having my time controlled. I was dumbfounded as I thought the phonecall was about courtesy. I wanted him to know where i was and when I would be home, so that he would not worry.
Interpretations about proper behaviour shift from group to group. But, i do believe that manners, courtesy, and good behaviour is universal!
You bring up such intriguing topics!
Radha
Radha, I must agree with you whole heartedly about good manners having nothing to do with being a feminist nor about having autonomy. Its simply being loving and respectful of another human being and geez! If you aren’t doing that for your partner, then there’s something wrong with your thinking! I have never understood women who thought like your school mates. I grew unpopular with some of my friends early in life because I had similar views then as now. Especially once I had a child. Life becomes precious and I wanted to know where my family was once I had a child. I realized then that worry is a profound discourtesy and that its also a cruelty just on the premise of autonomy. I’m glad you understood that so young too. Many people don’t it seems…though you’d think that would be easy in an age of twitter and cell phones. *smiles* As for the topic, I stole it fair and square from the Thinking Dominant. You ought to go see what else others said on his site. ((hugs))
November 15, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I agree, for me, much of all of this is about respect. I totally get your restaurant example. There have been times when I have deferred to the other person, but it has nothing to do with gender…I have also been known to give my opinion on such matters if I am the one who is more knowledgeable.
Welcome Carla!! Thanks for saying hello! Its very good that you’ve joined the discussion. I don’t have a structure in my relationship that includes additional rules for manners and such, but like Olivia, I think that it must be affirming in social situations like dinner out. Blessings!! Please say hello again. *smiles*
November 15, 2008 at 6:33 pm
I agree that this is not so much a D/s question or factor but a general one of respect and manners. I can see though how effective it would be in a D/s situation though and help to feel the dynamic more fully.
Strangely enough opening doors is something my former husband never really did for me and I didn’t think much of it. He was always respectful to me as I was to him, that is just how we are but those little things he didn’t do and I didn’t expect.
On the rare occasions I have had a man open a door for me it is always like a new experience that I feel quite shocked but I appreciate and enjoy it when it does happen.
I wonder that it is my independent soul that thinks oh well if he won’t I will just do it myself, I am very much like this in much of my life. Sometimes that is good, sometimes not.
Hugs
Mina
Hello Mina! I’m like you and just do things myself because I’m an independent soul. After my sushi meal with my date, I went to the ladies room. Upon leaving the ladies room, being used to my husband, I figured he’d be in the car already. Men are usually much speedier about getting the deed done in the men’s room than women are in the ladies, so when I didn’t see him loitering for me, I went wandering out in the sunshine. He was quite taken aback at finding me out there leaning on his locked car looking at the garden across the street and enjoying the sun on my face. *grins* I just laughed and reminded him that I told him I was independent. I didn’t mention that I didn’t wander back in to find him because I figured that he’d eventually come looking for me, no big deal. It was a lovely day after all. Had it been night time, I likely would have waited inside for him, but it wasn’t, so I didn’t. I think that feminism has done atrocious things to our societies manners, but its nice too that women are far less helpless than they once were. I remember that when my father went to war, my mother didn’t know how to do alot of things. She didn’t know how to change the fluids in her car and she didn’t know how to make minor repairs in the house. I guess its a trade off isn’t it? Blessings!!
November 15, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Greenwoman,
I tell you one thing. I better be chivalrous and exhibit proper manners. If I don’t, Deborah will tan my hide!
What does chivalry mean to you?
It means a very sore rear if I don’t implement the concept.
Do you have rules of manners and etiquette for your submissive?
Yes and she has them for me!
Who holds doors, orders food, and handles money?
Both of us.
What importance is etiquette for your dynamic?
Etiquette is very important for us. In my case, I better show some etiquette if I wish to sit down anytime soon comfortably!
Very nice topic! Thank you for sharing it!
Sitting comfortably (For now),
Marcus
*grins* You are so fun Marcus…I’m glad you are sitting comfortably just now. I wonder if you do the same thing for Deb about manners?
November 16, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Greenwoman,
You wonder??? I think you know the answer to that question, Missy. LOL! She isn’t the only one who can tan a bottom!
Marcus
LOL! I thought as much, but I wanted to hear you say it. I find it very enjoyable to see both sides of your sexual/emotional nature Marcus. *smiles*
November 16, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Greenwoman,
I have some questions about poly. May I e-mail you those questions?
Marcus
Of course you may Marcus. I have posted an image with my email address in the side bar and its also on my blogger profile. I don’t type it anywhere because it keeps the spammers from using it. I’ll look forward to hearing from you. *smiles*
November 16, 2008 at 6:13 pm
J’s manners have always impressed me. Not just how he treats me, but everyone he comes in contact with. Every time I am with him, he treats me with utmost respect, but more than that, I feel protected and cherished. At the same time, he is always very much in charge.
The manners and respect that he displayed towards me (and others) went a long way to establishing trust between us. Although, there was much more involved as well. Even now, when we are together, we are relaxed and comfortable, but an air of formality remains when it comes to etiquette. I always try to be on my best behavior, I endeavor to show him as much respect and deference as he does to me. He makes me feel very special always.
*smiles* I think that’s how relationships are supposed to feel really…but I think you are right about the dynamic of D/s is heightened by the manners we share. Its good to hear from you Alice. Blessings!!
November 16, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Mmmmm, in public both my Love and DragonM treat me as a lady and I always treat them with respect… everybody who I encounter gets my respect until they prove not to be worthy of trust or respect and then I avoid them… I think people confronting others with their D/s relationship in public are very bad mannered… it’s something different on a munch or play party or in a club… but when in public I think we should all use our manners… at least that’s how I’ve been brought up…
Hello Henneke. *smiles* ((hugs)) Good to hear from you. You bring up a point for me about kink socials that I’ve not spoken of much. I am frequently uncomfortable with certain things at socials. I don’t appreciate people touching me or waving spanking implements at me threatening to spank me. If I don’t have a personal relationship with that person-and I’m not talking about friendship here- then it feels seriously uncomfortable to me. They take it as a huge joke and I suppose that it is really. But I don’t feel safe when that happens. I feel that my body is not being respected. Its bad manners to cause others to feel that way. And I also want to remark about disciplinary actions going on in front of others. Many people, just because it is a kink social begin humiliating or disciplining their submissive in front of others and think that’s okay. In my opinion, it is not okay. Its a private matter between the D and s. It belongs in the play room. If its in the rest of the party areas, its supposed to be a play free zone…and as such, while kinky related conversation is occurring, play is not. It makes me feel uncomfortable when its forced on me. If I go into the play room, then its my choice to participate as the observer, but otherwise, I can either leave the party or put up with it. I think that’s bad manners personally…especially since their kink may be something that’s really upsetting to me or someone else in the room. Just some thoughts…*smiles*
November 16, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Greenwoman,
There is so much in this post. I have read and re-read it. Each time, I have gotten something new out of it. The following comment you made in response to Paul got me to thinking:
“I’m sure there’s fun to be had with unobtrusive interactions between the couple, but I don’t think that a couple should be bringing the public into their kink.”
I completely agree with this. In fact, Deborah and I talk about this all the time. We believe it to be a very high form of disrespect to those who do not wish to be involved in kinky matters. At the same time, there is a certain humiliation factor of being disciplined in public. I must admit that I have those fantasies. However, I have never acted on them. I think it is enough to have Deborah whisper in my ear that if I don’t behave I will get it when we get home. It adds something to the moment that I do not think is present in the right then and there. To me, that something is dread, which time doubles and even triples over time.
Marcus
Hello Marcus, Public exchanges are very erotic and very effective in establishing a lovely D/s connection between the couple, but I do think it should be surreptitious. I have read where some couples have pre-arranged signals for things. Once I read of a couple who the submissive was the male in the couple. The signal was that if she ordered a particular drink-one they both know she doesn’t like, he’s to go get her one he knows she does and then go to the bathroom and use some kind of pinchy toy on some part of his body. Its painful and he hates it. Then he goes back to the table and waits five or ten minutes before she excuses him again to go take the toy off. No one knows, but them, but he’s been thoroughly disciplined without any indication of it to anyone else. He’s humiliated at sitting there with the painful toy and having to pretend he’s just fine and upset because he got into trouble and when he gets home, he’ll be punished further too. So…there’s ways to do it if you want to play public, but doing so privately is the key. *smiles*
November 17, 2008 at 2:17 am
Greenwoman,
OMG, that is so hot! It is what dreams are made of. Speaking of dreams, it is time for me to go to bed. Goodnight. :)
Marcus
*grins* I figured you’d like that idea. LOL! I hope you had sweet dreams Marcus and a nice morning with Deb. Blessings to you both.